It's More Than OK To Listen To Abby K!

Intro - Pacific Songwriting Camp

SPEAKER_00 0:03

Gather around, kids. You are listening to Gramps Just Make Shit Up.

SPEAKER_03 0:08

You should listen to Just My Gramps.

SPEAKER_00 0:11

Hey, thanks so much for checking out this episode of Gramps Just Make Shit Up, where you get to hear stories and the stories behind the stories from some very talented singer-songwriters in the genre of Americana and folk music. As a reminder, I don't necessarily make everything up, but everything you hear here should be checked with snopes. You know, trust but verify. I have my Abbey playlist on Spotify.

SPEAKER_04 0:36

Wow, I'm so I'm just so deeply touched. I don't know if you can understand that, but it it's very touching.

SPEAKER_01 1:01

Can't discern the lines. Minutes turn to hours, lost me.

SPEAKER_00 1:07

Speaking of minutes turning to hours, I recently had this wonderful conversation with Seattle-based singer-songwriter Abby Kaye. I met Abby in January of 2020. You know the time before? Down in the Pacific Songwriters Camp in Cambria, California, at a rustically beautiful place called Camp Ocean Pine. It was hosted by Michael McNevin and Carolyn Tester. And there was about 70 of us there. But Abby stood out as an extremely warm and talented singer-songwriter. And I gotta confess my ignorance. I went to this songwriting camp thinking that most of the attendees would be like me, meaning they really didn't know what they were doing. They just were there to learn. What I found out is that most of these participants were accomplished singers, songwriters, musicians, recording artists. Boy, was I out of my element. But what I found was a wonderful group of people that I've been friends with, many of them, ever since. And you'll probably hear those names in this conversation with Abby. As she shares her story about her musical journey, she tells stories about her family, she tells stories about co-writing with other musicians, many of whom were at this Pacific Songwriting Camp. Now I know I sound like an advertisement for the Pacific Songwriting Camp in Cambria, California that will be coming up in January of 2023. And if you'd like more information about that, let me know. Anyway, back to the conversation with Abby. She's lovely, and I'm gonna stop introducing her and let you listen in on the conversation.

SPEAKER_04 2:39

When we were talking last week, I wrote down, you know, what are my motivations and drive behind songwriting? I mean performing. Sometimes there's only one that you like to do, right? In my case, I do like both.

SPEAKER_00 2:52

The earliest memory of music in your life. Can you recall that?

SPEAKER_04 2:56

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 2:57

I love this question.

SPEAKER_04 2:59

My very earliest memory was I must have been five or six. I couldn't have

Abby's earliest memory of music

SPEAKER_04 3:05

been much older. I had found an old microphone, like literally, like a real live microphone in my parents' credenza where the stereo was and a few old eight-tracks. Remember eight-track? Like Dusty Springfield. I never listened to the eight-track because I didn't grow up listening to eight-tracks. So they had already moved on to records at that stage at when I was that age, and probably cassettes. I mean, those are my childhood forms of listening to music. But I remember seeing old eight-track, and I remember this microphone, and I would hold the microphone in the middle of the living room, and I would sing to Crystal Gale's Don't It Make My Brown Eyes Blue, and who else did I sing? Um, a lot of Linda Ronstant and Kermit the Frog, The Rainbow Connection. So those three songs in particular, and artists in particular, are who I tried to emulate in my living room with a real microphone, not plugged in.

SPEAKER_00 4:09

So the fact that you were interested in holding a microphone and singing into it to songs, was that rewarded in some way early on? In other words, did your family, your mom and dad, or anybody that was around, did they encourage you at that point?

SPEAKER_04 4:25

Yes. Both my folks, my mom and my dad. They and they still are. They're still alive and they're still very supportive and encouraging of this part of my you know, of my life. I can imagine. But when I was little, when I was really young, the only step there was was theater. So it was musical theater at the time. I mean, there was no, you want to be a songwriter like that. That didn't exist until I I was like a grown old lady. So so, you know, so they were very encouraging. They got me involved in musical theater. And my dad, I mean, for as long as I could remember, I think he really hoped that I would pursue a theater. I think he he thought if I went to New York, I'd make it on Broadway. I mean, he was that kind of a dad. And he used to call me Sarah Heartburn. Um that was his nickname for me, uh the earliest I can remember. So he my parents encouraged musical theater, and I I pursued that pretty heavily through college. It was really my only method and ability to not necessarily hold that microphone, but perform and sing, which were the the two things that I had the tools and I understood how to work with.

SPEAKER_00 5:44

Well, that makes a lot of sense. What was your major in college?

SPEAKER_04 5:47

I studied public communications and I double majored in theater.

SPEAKER_00 5:53

So somebody had to notice your singing voice the first time where you connected to, oh, they think I'm good at this. Who was that? Do you recall?

SPEAKER_04 6:01

Well, I don't know if it was anybody, I don't remember the person's name that actually, if I had to sit here and tell you a specific story. It was not in my youth at all. It had nothing, it it when I sang on stage and I played another role and I sang and people clapped and gave me all the accolades that were that I could see happening, I'm not certain that's where it actually hit me that that I was effective or that people liked it. Which is why I kind of cold turkey after college. I I didn't pursue theater. I really no I uh cold turkey. I graduated college and instead of going to New York or LA or another big city and trying to pursue this this 20-year-long dream that I had told myself, convinced myself that I wanted, I didn't want it. And I didn't want to go wait tables and be rejected. That's all I could see. That's all I could see. And I just don't think at the time, at you know, 20 years old, I had this the skin thick enough to be able to approach that lifestyle. So silly. I mean, it is what it is. I'm a believer of going for things, even the impossible today. I would tell my children that I couldn't follow my own advice and I went the opposite direction. So I definitely I took the the safer route. I took a job um that I woke up and went to every day and got a paycheck. And um I pretty much I pretty much didn't I pretty much tucked tucked that that piece of me away for a long time. Um and n I don't recall being sad about it. I don't recall being unhappy about my choices. It was just a period of my life where there was definitely other other things that I think I knew I wanted and they weren't feeling badly about myself.

SPEAKER_03 8:08

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 8:09

So it's been it's been one of those journeys where it wasn't until and I am coming back to the question that you asked me about when and who was it that noticed my my abilities to sing or I'm a patient man. Yes, you are. It wasn't until probably almost, you know, probably about 10 years later, a little less, that I had met my husband at the time when we were dating, and he didn't know, he didn't meet me in that as a theatrical person. He didn't see me perform. He didn't, he only heard stories from my mom and my dad, and uh maybe me. I didn't play guitar at the time. So I couldn't, oh yeah, here I can play a song. Like that just it was like this bizarre void when you meet that person, right? That knows you and ultimately knows you better than most people, and you share so much. Like it was just this in hindsight, uh looking at this our beginning, like he didn't know what is the crux of a huge part of who I am.

SPEAKER_00 9:12

What is this lucky guy's name?

SPEAKER_04 9:14

His name is Brian.

SPEAKER_00 9:15

All right, Brian.

SPEAKER_04 9:16

And Ryan, for my birthday, it was early on. I think it was like, you know, or you know, one of the first birthdays, you know, we had been dating. He gave me he gave me a guitar, he gave me

Brian gives Abby a guitar

SPEAKER_04 9:31

my first guitar and some guitar lessons. And I don't exactly remember how I articulated myself when he gave those to me. I know that I I pursued it, I followed through. It got me to learn to play the guitar down the road. But the fact that Brian was able to detect that there was a side of me that I wasn't pursuing or I I wasn't reaching, really blows me away today how well he knows me. So it's probably Brian that's the first person that made me feel that I had something worthwhile to sing and say. I don't that being said, it wasn't really until I started songwriting and performing my songs that I experienced that connection with a listener who complimented me, that it really made a difference and made me realize, oh, somebody likes it.

SPEAKER_00 10:30

All right, Brian. Let's uh let's thank Brian here uh to the uh to our listening audience. No, that's a wonderful story, and it probably speaks you know to the depth and breadth of the lyrics that you have. Well, let me ask you this do you preview your songs to Brian, or is that something you hold back until they're finally honed?

SPEAKER_04 10:53

I think today I hone them a lot before I preview most anything. Certainly because I'm hard on myself, as most people are, and I'm we're gonna put a pause.

SPEAKER_00 11:07

Hold on just a minute. Peaches,

Peaches interrupts

SPEAKER_00 11:10

this is not your podcast. We'll get to your podcast later. So please let me talk to Abby. Abby, I'm sorry about that.

SPEAKER_04 11:16

You were saying I have a lot of insecurities as a songwriter. I think even after doing it for a very long time, we all still hold our insecurities. And that's important. I think that's a a big part of being able to share your songs is to help, you know, that they they go together and finding that reaction, it's different every time. And sometimes what I feel is strong and should get a bigger reaction. It doesn't.

SPEAKER_00 11:45

Isn't that soul crushing?

SPEAKER_04 11:47

Yes. However, the ones that I feel are probably throwaway and not so engaging can have the complete opposite reaction. So I don't know all the answers behind it and what helps create that reaction, but it's kind of fun because you just really never know. I get in my way more than than anybody or anything. However, what you do and what I do when we write our songs and we share them, that is the that that is the most vulnerable experience a human can share. It's never gonna not feel that way because it's not me learning a you know, that was the thing about theater that didn't resonate with me. It was that I was playing a part. I was playing somebody else. I was playing somebody else's story as opposed to sharing whether it's sharing my personal story or my emotions or somebody else's emotions via me, via myself as the character. You know, that took me a long time to decipher and understand and how I got to where I am today. But that is never, I don't think that's ever gonna feel easy to do.

SPEAKER_00 13:05

That makes sense. Yeah. And that probably is what also helps your creativity on your edge, where you keep pushing forward, whether it's a performance or whether it's uh writing something or creating a melody. Or yeah, I guess it sort of keeps you on your on your toes, right?

SPEAKER_04 13:23

Yeah, performing for me is actually a channel. It's a channel to which my words might help others. So they're mine. They're usually an emotion or a situation or something I observe that has resonated with me enough to write about it. And when I see that evoke an emotion or reaction or heard that it really resonates with a listener, that's magical for me. That's what matters, I think, at the crux for me, that that's really what it's about. And I sure wish I could do that for a lot more people.

SPEAKER_00 14:00

Well, that sort of starts the question of what do you think is really at the heart of your desire to perform for other people? What do you think that's born from?

SPEAKER_04 14:08

It's a great question. I

Desire to perform...what's the drive

SPEAKER_04 14:10

believe it's my interpretation of an observation that I have that turns into my craft, my thing, my my song. And it is definitely how effective I am at getting a listener to understand that and feel it in the same, not necessarily in the same way that I feel it, but that it that it resonates to them in a significant manner. That is the driver for me because that is what music is about for me. It's about feeling. And it's yes, it's about lyrics. Those are important too. Words that matter, ideas that matter, feelings that matter, emotions that matter. I write a lot about emotions, and emotions are are not an easy story to tell. It's an intangible feeling. So a lot of my writing is trying to get at those emotions in a compelling manner. And when another person has their own personal reaction to it in a meaningful way, that is the driver. That is 100% my drive.

SPEAKER_00 15:10

Very well said. Sounds like you're inviting people to share emotions with you, whether they overtly do it or not. You're sharing your soul so that they know that sharing theirs is okay. Does that sound right?

SPEAKER_04 15:23

That is beautiful.

SPEAKER_00 15:24

Of course, that leads into one of my favorite songs that you had done recently. It's it's okay to not be okay. I love that song of yours, and I just had to use it.

SPEAKER_04 15:33

Yeah. I wrote that in your in your presence, in your company. I wrote that at camp. So this was, you know, six weeks before the pandemic. And it was my first time at songwriting camp, which was just such a magical experience. And I believe I had seen well, there was a lot going on. There was a lot going on in the world. I was driving a lot. I was touring my last record at the time. It had just come out, and I snuck in song camp as part of my time away and being on the road. And it was Cozy. I was taking Cozy's class, and I had met Cozy at a another camp in Washington. I had been to, it was the Puget Sound

It's OK to Not Be OK-explained

SPEAKER_04 16:15

Guitar Workshop camp. So I had met her a couple years or the year prior. And so when I heard she was gonna be a teacher at the songwriting camp, I, you know, I was thrilled. So of course I signed up for her class. And Cozy's approach to songwriting, I don't know, at the time I I was not very pleased.

Cosy Sheridan

SPEAKER_04 16:37

But that's the brilliance of not saying no, keeping an open mind, trusting the process. And Cozy's assignment was to take one of your favorite songs and write it out, keep the same melody and just change the lyric. And I had a I had a problem with plagiarism. Maybe she was she was like, go ahead and plagiarize. She didn't say those words exactly. So I was, you know, it kind of read me. It just felt a little icky, but it wasn't a one-day class. So I went, I took the song by one of my favorite bands. They're Scottish, they're called Travis. And Travis has been in my life for a very long time. And I took my favorite Travis song and I wrote it out. I wrote out the chords, and I rewrote Driftwood to It's Okay Not to Be Okay. And it was very choppy. You know, the lyrics weren't all there. The point of the exercise wasn't necessarily to leave with a finished product polished and whatnot. But then over the course of the two days or the three days, she taught the class how to turn a song that isn't yours and all the different approaches you can take that will make it yours. You know, if you're having a hard time coming up with a new melody or you're having a block of some sort, it's a starting point. It doesn't mean you're gonna keep it. It's a starting point. And I found it very effective because I've since used that. I've since used her process in writing other songs that don't end up sounding anything like the song it starts with. And so it's okay not to be okay became, I'll never forget when we had to perform our songs. I was so nervous. It was so bad it wasn't finished, Lou. But six weeks later, that song became really important. You know, we were we found ourselves in a in a place the world hadn't in our lifetime has experienced. And I got it out there pretty quickly. I finished the song, I worked remotely with an engineer to help me get it produced. And it is okay not to be okay.

SPEAKER_00 18:38

I am so sorry, but I just have to pause our conversation for just a bit. I want our listeners to hear the song in its entirety.

SPEAKER_01 18:59

Everything feels blurry, can't discern the lines.

It's OK to Not Be Ok - The song

SPEAKER_01 19:05

Minutes turn to hours, lost meaning of time. Time is just a folder from memory to find Helping to unwind. One is just a number. Everyone you know it's one. Water's falling low. Lonely days are numbered, your numbers mustn't grow. So it's okay not to be okay. It's okay, it's just another day. You can be not okay. Wipe away those tears in your life. What you feel will crush you, deep and happy sighs. You see, are foggy, beating distant cries, crying out with sadness. It's good to let it go. Living with a hard time, going with the flow. So it's okay not to be okay. It's okay, it's just another day. You can be not okay. Why the way the tears in your eyes? Can't skip better. I can't turn itself. Change is not an object you can measure. It only starts when you decided. So it's okay not to be okay. It's okay, it's just another day. You can be not okay as long as you die. So I put those tears in your eyes. So it's okay not to be. Okay. It's okay not to be okay. You can be not okay as long as you die. Not okay, though.

SPEAKER_04 22:17

We live in a time where that's still very hard for people to admit and hard for people to accept, but it's getting there. And I think it's I think slowly we're acting as humans and understand that that we're not always okay. We don't always feel okay. And you can say it.

SPEAKER_00 22:36

Much more acceptable at a lot of

Dale La Duke Helped

SPEAKER_00 22:38

different levels. And was it Dale that uh was your kid?

SPEAKER_04 22:41

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 22:41

Yeah, and I don't know if he'll ever listen to this, but Dale is one of the nicest, generous, gentle souls that I have ever met. And his course, his musicianship was just like, wow.

SPEAKER_04 22:52

So and and you know, I even being a student, a participant, I was not an instructor. He was, that was his role, that was his job. I still was embarrassed. I was I was like, how can I play something so raw and unfinished and unbeautiful? And Dale just, I don't know, he took all those fears and all those concerns of mine and he made it sound good enough to get through it and feel okay about it. Yeah, he was I don't know if I said more than two words to Dale, other than that experience that I had, because I I don't think I took a class with him, or you know, there are a lot of people there, so I didn't get a chance to to get to know everybody. So he was kind of like, you know, that ooh, he's too good.

SPEAKER_00 23:38

We agree that there were some good instructors there. I mean, Severin Brown, of course, and Rachel Garner and Michael, Michael McNevin. I see him fairly regularly because he's got his little mud puddle over here.

SPEAKER_04 23:50

Oh, you're close to that. You're so lucky.

SPEAKER_00 23:52

Three miles away, yeah. You and Brian are gonna have to make time to come down here and play music at the mud puddle for the gang. Let me ask you some technical stuff. When the muse hits, you know, slaps you upside the head. Is it usually the words that come to you, or do you get this melody in your head, or is it some some of both?

SPEAKER_04 24:08

It's mostly 95% lyrics for me. They are the foundation to most of my emotions. However, that being said, when I first started this songwriting journey, a friend of mine, a very dear friend of mine, who helped me produce and engineer my first album. This was back in 2013, I think. 2012, 2013. I had never really worked with another person ever. And he was a very experienced songwriter. He wasn't just a engine, he was a new engineer. If anything, he was a songwriter. And so we worked a lot together on my songs, and we had, I remember having this conversation, a very long conversation about what comes first, the lyrics or is it the melody? And I was like, it's lyrics, of course. And he's like, no, no, it's melody, of course. Like, what? You know, this was all new to me. I was like, there's another point of view. So still to this day on, we still probably hold hold our opinions. And even though lyrics are what are my natural go-to, I have I my entire second album, Heart Shaped Rock, I wrote primarily intentionally with Melody first. And I used I used it as an exercise. I also read this really great interview with Paul Simon in that book. Um, it's called Song Songwriting from Songwriters.

SPEAKER_00 25:40

Paul Zolo's work?

SPEAKER_04 25:41

Yes. I love that book because you can just open it and read what you want and come out with a the end of the story, you know, very short and sweet. But Paul Simon's interview in particular in that his process, I recall him saying that he wrote Graceland intentionally in the opposite manner that he he normally gravitates towards. And it's just that was inspirational. So I did that a lot for that record. So it does work and it is effective. And yes, there are times where I'm in my car driving and I start humming something, and I will very quickly just I've learned to use, you know, blindly that little recording button, and I will record my terrible on the spot melody that I would not share with anybody, including my husband. But they're there and they're nuggets, and they can be real effective at certain times. So I'm stronger. I just I gravitate and I'm stronger with sitting down and writing words. I appreciate the the melodic perspective.

SPEAKER_00 26:49

Well, I see the audience won't be able to see this, but you know, you're using your hands like you're typing, your gestures, but are you playing the keyboard as well? Is that uh that leads to the question, uh, which is your go-to instrument?

SPEAKER_04 27:03

Yeah, I'm a guitar, I pick up the guitar the most uh because I understand how to play notes on the guitar. I understand piano. I don't really play the piano, but I learn music that I learned theory on a piano at a very young age. So most of the time I will come up with a melody, I'll figure it out on a on a piano because I have more, I have more to work with that makes sense to me with the keys. And then I can figure out what I'm playing and then transpose it to a guitar because in terms of guitar theory, I'm a toddler and I did not learn to play the guitar on a theoretical level. I learned to play guitar at a school that worked on shapes. So this is a C and this is a D. And I have a very hard time transposing without a capo to a different key. I just my brain doesn't naturally work that way. So I've rather than making myself feel bad about it or or carve out another decade worth of time that I'm going to need to get there, I just use what I have. And so I will sit down and fool around at on the piano quite a bit, although I'm not sure you'll ever hear me play a piano live at this point, uh, because I don't practice on the piano as much as I I prefer to perform on a guitar. So I do work with both. The guitar can be very limiting in a melodic perspective for me because I don't know how to make a a B flat very easily or a A7 third. I mean, who knows? I I'm not I I don't sound like a very, you know, a great musician at the moment, but that's how my brain works. So I go with what I got.

SPEAKER_00 28:44

Hey, that's uh that's a lesson for a lot of people. Just go with what you got. Don't slow down. But do you have a favorite chord or chord progression that just naturally, when you pick up the guitar, your fingers go to that shape?

SPEAKER_04 28:56

Well, probably I don't have one in particular. I will say that I love minors, the minor palette. It's rare that I don't add a minor surprise in one of my songs.

SPEAKER_00 29:09

So you admit you like to evoke emotion.

SPEAKER_04 29:12

Yes. And you know, I think when you're told in your lifetime that you're very emotional, you know, sometimes people can use that in a in a not so glamorous manner. I think it explains to me a lot why I write the way I do and how I write, because emotions, you know, well, that's that's great. I'll take that as a compliment.

SPEAKER_00 29:33

Absolutely. There's a couple of songs I wanted to ask you about, uh, besides it's okay. The mom's old room. First of all, it's lovely. And is there a story behind mom's old room?

SPEAKER_04 29:44

There is. The the story is not mine, but it's really funny you asked about that song because I played it for the first time in two years at the circle last Thursday and really struck a chord with Joe. And the the story of Mom's Old Room was it was it was early in the pandemic, and I have one of the the channels in mus for music. I purely music, um, and and people that I've met, significant people that I've met in my life, I've met via Twitter.

Momma's Old Room

SPEAKER_04 30:15

I know it sounds so strange, but a gentleman reached out to me about music, you know, conversation, and expressed that he had a poem. He really liked my music. I don't think it was the first conversation we had, but he said, I have a poem, and would you be willing to look at it, you know, as a songwriter? Just give me your thoughts. And I said, Of course. And he sent me he sent me not that exact song, he sent me that song. And it really made me fall off my chair. Um, not many things do, especially from almost total strangers. But, you know, this was this man's story. And he opened up to me about it and certainly a journey and struggle that he has. I mean, I believe he's in his 60s and early s close to 70s now. So I asked him if it would be all right if I maybe worked on a melody for it and could I create a song from it? You know, I think he was he was like please. Like he was very amenable to it. So there was a little editing into it, but it is a complete collaboration. And it's his song. It's this person's song, and it's very private, and he doesn't he doesn't want his name involved in in everything, which I completely respect and will honor. But that song, it was just this haunting, it was a very haunting part of the pandemic for me. I I think of the pandemic in phases, especially two years out of it, or not out of it, but out of the quarantine, like that first, you know, year where we were really I was really quarantined. And it was a very that song just was very haunting and sad and beautiful and really lived, breathed. That song was my life for a number of months. So it's not the average folk song.

SPEAKER_00 32:06

I'm sure that the gentleman is honored and and also probably felt a bit of a catharsis in having somebody else support his story. But it was just beautiful.

SPEAKER_04 32:17

Thank you very much. Thank you.

Cease Fire! The Story

SPEAKER_04 32:19

I, you know, when you hear when you hear that for songs like that, again, that's that's the win. That's the win for me.

SPEAKER_00 32:26

One of the other songs that I enjoyed listening to was I don't know if you can see this, but I got my Abby playlist here. Very touching one.

SPEAKER_04 32:37

You can't, you, you can't tell that I'm turning bright red.

SPEAKER_00 32:42

That's okay. Ceasefire. That was another one that got my attention. I listened to it like three times in a row. Tell me about that. Was that a personal story? Oh, you don't have to tell me.

SPEAKER_04 32:52

No, I'm gonna tell you. I got nothing to hide. That song, this is a perfect segue, and I'll just gonna talk for a little bit, and then you get to edit however you see fit. Cease Fire, which was on my first record, was actually a collaboration, an early collaboration of mine that I don't think I realized was called a collaboration because songwriting was really brand new for me. It was a song that was written by my husband. It was a poem, and he is not a musician, he's not a traditional musician, he's not even a fake musician like me with my guitars, but he's a beautiful writer, and Ceasefire is a song written at a time where in our our marriage, our our couple was having a moment, and he wrote that poem and he gave it to me. And so I then I turned it into a song. There are two versions to that song, and there's the the one I think you're you've listened to, which is mostly the original. At the end of that record, there's the raw demo take that I put on there, which is unusual because I'm embarrassed about all demos of mine in their form. But it was important to have it on the record in some manner because it was really the raw version of that song. And so I've had that experience a few times with Brian. There are a couple of songs throughout the years that he has written lyrically predominantly, and I've turned into the

Cease Fire! The Song

SPEAKER_04 34:24

melody. I've matched it with the melody.

SPEAKER_03 34:47

Waiting for the night to change, but what once was they win the battle all with nothing and such common made nothing else is quite a thing that I just shame you to play in a month with perfect day build the black of that.

SPEAKER_04 38:20

And I love that you asked this question because I'm gonna I'm gonna take it one step further for you. That when the pandemic hit, I came down from Song Camp. You know, I had I just had started 2020 on the most magical note and came home to the pandemic where the whole world shut down, and every plan that we had for 2020 was gone. It just disappeared. And one of those plans was celebrating our 20th wedding anniversary. And we're like, we didn't have any huge thing planned, but we had the small trip planned to go see music, uh, a band of ours, the Avett brothers that we we love. And we were gonna go and see them in July, and that was gonna be our trip together, celebrating our marriage of 20 years. And so when that was canceled, like everything else, we decided that one day one day, you know, we all had a lot of time, right? I mean, what do you do with all that time? You look back on it, you're like, what a gift. Who

Abby and Brian's 20th

SPEAKER_04 39:24

gets all that time? Who's forced to not go out and make plans? What do you do? So you know, I was lucky that I wasn't alone. At least I was lucky that I was with somebody that didn't want to make me feel alone. So we decided to write each other a song. One day it was in the summer, nothing to do, nowhere to go. Uh, we wrote a song together. We wrote a duet, and the song morphed into an entire project where we wrote a record together. And I am finishing it up right now. It's gonna be released this year. So Brian and I, even though he's kind of behind the scenes, it was a full collaboration of our time together and our gift together to acknowledge our 20 plus years together and at a time where there was so much pain going around in the world around us to be able to focus on the good, on the positives. Cease Fire was the precursor to where we're at. And maybe one of the songs I'll share with you, which hasn't been released yet, but I can I'm happy to share it, you know, for your podcast. If you want to preview uh where we're at.

SPEAKER_00 40:40

Hey, anytime we can scoop something, hey, but well, congratulations to you and Brian. Uh, first of all, on your anniversary, you're moving into your beyond the 20 years. So the 25th year, boy, I can imagine what that's going to uh Yeah, I love that story. And the fact that uh Brian's behind the scenes work has uh sort of kept you quite prolific, moving moving you into other areas that you might otherwise not have explored. So I can't wait to meet him.

SPEAKER_04 41:12

Yeah, yeah. It's uh it's uh definitely a source. You know, he he is I think one of the questions you asked me is it was the support. Uh let's see, how is your family right hindered or supported or otherwise influenced your art? You know, that's a really important and significant question to anybody who's artistic and and expresses themselves via that mode. Because in my case, it was very supportive. I had a lot of encouragement and a lot of patience being my experience in music, you know, came at a time where I was a young mom at the time. So I had already started a life where I had two children to take care of. I I worked, you know, I have a day job too.

unknown 41:58

FYI.

SPEAKER_04 41:59

And all of a sudden, this like this side, right, is is trying to blossom and come through a very dormant period of my life. So when you have that to work around, you really need somebody who really is patient and understands that I couldn't find this part piece of me as an art an artist in conjunction with being around and being present at every minute all the time. So I'm very fortunate that both Brian and my kids, you know, have learned to understand that side of me. Whether they like it or not, I don't know, but they have accepted that and they have gifted that for me to you gotta be, you gotta be happy before you can be, you know, a successful wife and parent. And so I that being said, I know a lot of stories where the opposite helped drive and motivate an artist to become who they were. So I I that's why I said it's a it's a really good question because adversity is just as powerful as support, obvious support.

SPEAKER_00 43:05

I couldn't agree more, and it just comes from different sides and sometimes in from places and people that you know wouldn't have guessed if you had to predict it. You wouldn't be able to do that. I love the uh duet that you did with your son. I will. And at first I was going, I wonder who she's singing with. And then I dug just a little bit deeper. I went, wait, that's her son. That was beautiful.

SPEAKER_04 43:24

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 43:24

So did you talk him into that, or was that something he volunteered? He wanted did he find the song?

SPEAKER_04 43:29

So my I have two boys, I have two sons. They're both musically beyond my wildest dreams of of having. Oh congratulations, yeah. They Jared he he graduated last year, he graduated high school, and we're very close. And it was a it was one of the hardest, you know, the the preparation for me emotionally, preparing to say goodbye to him. It sounds so dramatic.

Abby's Sons

SPEAKER_04 44:00

Yeah, there's the Sarah Heartburn coming right out.

SPEAKER_00 44:05

But it was Welcome back, Sarah.

SPEAKER_04 44:08

It was that huge for me. Emotionally preparing to say goodbye. He was gonna he's away. He left the state to go to college and and wanted to and worked hard to do it. And I'm very supportive of it. And I want him to fly and find himself and be himself. But music was always definitely a strong suit in his life and of a strong connection that we had. And this particular song we sang a lot when he was little in the car.

SPEAKER_00 44:41

And rehearsing.

SPEAKER_04 44:43

Rehearsing unbeknownst to us both. And I think it was last March he said, you know, mom, I I want before I graduate, I I really want to record a song with you. And I was like, what? It was a surprise. It was it was a surprise. And I said, okay, I'll make that happen. Not a problem. And we chose, we chose I will, I will for a duet. It made a whole lot of sense to me because from the perspective from a parent to a child, it made perfect sense. It it just works. And he has a lovely voice who I'm not sure he knows. He's a he's a violinist, a trained violinist and violist. And he, I don't think singing has ever, I've always told him he had a good voice. He's speaking of harmonies, I've never met anybody who is better at harmonies than my son. So had a lot of fun putting it together. It's pretty simple. It's actually a very, it was not a complex production. Um, his voice are are most of the ethereal uh sounds that you're hearing in that bridge. There's there are no instruments, it's purely, purely vocals. And you know, that was the first step, and then the second step, um, I'll have to send it to you, Lou, is the is the video that I made uh to go along with the recording. And that was a brutal, brutal trip down memory for me, but like I said, like you said earlier, it was very cathartic, and it really helped me get to a a real solid place to be ready for that departure in his next chapter.

SPEAKER_00 47:44

So it's hard to do video editing when you're crying, isn't it?

unknown 47:49

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_00 47:51

Yeah, I get it.

SPEAKER_04 47:52

And he's so embarrassed, he's so humble about it. You know, I'll be like, Did you play it for your friends? Do they know you're on the you know, they play that on the radio here in uh in Seattle. My KBCS plays my music and they play I Will. I was like, Do you tell your friends that you're like you're on the radio? Like, no.

SPEAKER_00 48:12

Where's he going to college?

SPEAKER_04 48:13

He's at Syracuse University.

SPEAKER_00 48:15

Okay, so he is on the other side of the country, isn't he? Yeah, yeah. You know Mark Al Shiati?

SPEAKER_04 48:20

Of course, you don't know this, but Mark is the reason I I came to Song Camp.

SPEAKER_00 48:24

Oh, I didn't know that. He's uh he's like a little brother to me. Uh, he really is. A couple of people that I've developed friendships with are like family, and he's got the sense of humor that we share that sixth sense of humor, sort of yeah. So so we enjoy each other's company online uh mostly. He actually came up, he and Sherry came up to Niles last year, and we had lunch together, and it was a lot of fun. So I'm glad to hear that. And I know he's from Syracuse.

SPEAKER_04 48:50

So you're right, he is from Syracuse, and I love his memes. And Mark and I have written a

Syracuse's own Mark Alciati!

SPEAKER_04 48:56

number of songs together.

SPEAKER_00 48:57

I did not know that.

SPEAKER_04 48:58

So next time you're in a in a room with him, he'll play. I have a hard time playing our song. He is such a phenomenal guitar player, his voice. He plays our songs like he's been playing them for like two decades. And I can't even I I I there I just could never do it justice like Mark does. So I, you know, I tell myself I can't, so then I don't. So that's but he he is one of the most enjoyable collaborators I've written with. I loved your question. Writer's block, stage fright, imposter syndrome, and other things that attempt to silence you. So very well put. And the answer is all of these and then some. Um, I can't speak for everyone, but I will always be my worst critic. I don't exactly understand why all the time, because I do have experiences and physical proof that I have made some positive strides in where I am as an artist today. And even if I reached my highest goal, if I showed you my, you know, what what's the ultimate goal, right? Even if I showed you that list and I reached it, I'm uncertain. I'd be able to admit the feeling of success and appreciate it, even after reaching what I think is, from this perspective, the pentultimate goal I could reach. So I would say I am a work in progress in this area and learning to accept where I'm at today and appreciate that.

SPEAKER_00 50:37

The work in progress acknowledgement, I think, is essential to whatever we choose to do. And and just go, well, I did my best at the moment with what I had. Um when you're playing to audiences, do you ever change the lyrics of your music on the fly?

SPEAKER_01 50:54

No.

SPEAKER_00 50:54

No? Okay. I'm just curious if if you're if you're writing while you're singing.

SPEAKER_04 51:00

That is a skill that I admire so much when I witness it and I see artists like Mark. Mark can do that. That is a skill that I have never been able to feel comfortable in in order to even attempt. And it kind of goes back, I would say, Lou, it definitely relates to that that little thing I said to you when we first started our conversation today that I couldn't tell you a joke unless it was written down for me and I memorized it. It's the exact same thing. It's an improvisational ability that I lack or that I just don't feel confident with. So no, unfortunately.

SPEAKER_00 51:44

Just stick to the script, right? Well, this has been so much fun. It's fun being us, isn't it?

SPEAKER_04 51:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 51:55

That's funny.

SPEAKER_04 51:55

Yeah. So no worries about your deadlines and your time frames with me, Lou.

SPEAKER_00 52:00

Again, thank you so much for your time. We'll be talking again soon. Okay, ladies and gentlemen, you heard it here first, exclusively on Gramps Just Make Shit Up. I may actually use that. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 52:11

I love that title.

SPEAKER_04 52:13

So great.

SPEAKER_00 52:14

All right, my dear. We'll look forward to talking to you soon.

SPEAKER_04 52:16

Wonderful, Lou. Thank you so much for having me and giving me an opportunity to share.

SPEAKER_00 52:25

When I was a youngster, everybody told me that I could be anybody that I wanted to be. Turns out that's not really true because, well, as most of you know, identity theft is a crime.

SPEAKER_03 52:36

Grant, are you kidding?

SPEAKER_00 52:39

Well, to quote Abby, minutes turn to hours. I'd like to thank Abby for sharing her stories and her music. That catchy little tune at the beginning, in the one you're listening to now, is called Exit Laughing from her album The Whole Truth. We also heard It's Okay Not to Be Okay. And also included in this episode was Cease Fire. Links to all of Abby's music can be found in

Gramp's Bad Joke

SPEAKER_00 53:02

the episode show notes. I'd also like to thank Dave Pascoe of Late for the Train. They were in our first episode. Dave has allowed me to use his music at the opening of Gramps

Outro

SPEAKER_00 53:13

Just Make Shit Up. It's from his album Ordinary Florist. And of course, thanks to my grandson JD for his endorsement. Before I forget, shout out to my woodplock family. You know who you are. Remember those delicious cupcakes that we enjoyed at the last woodplock outing? Well, they came from Danville Bakery here in Danville, California. And if you're in the neighborhood, please stop by and thank Karen. She's the reason they were there. Oh, and just so you know, any health benefit claims made in this episode have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. I have to go now. It's time for my nap.

SPEAKER_01 53:51

Standing here by the door, first to say hello. Welcome to the window.